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chassis rot


https://forumtest.aths.org/Topic124726.aspx
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By fuelem7 - Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:29 PM
removed my fifth wheel plate today and found top flanges of rails very thin and rotted thru in 2 spots.thinking about replacing both rails from behind sleeper to end.any advice?200" wb now would like 236"
By John_Costley - Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:05 PM
If she has rotted bad enough to rot thru then you dont have much choice.Thats always been a problem area up here in New England, with the high salt use on the roads.Corrosion under the fifthwheel mounts has killed alot of aluminum framed trucks up here and sent them to the scrap yard.John
By fuelem7 - Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:02 AM
would like to keep it as a working hobby if needed.is replacing rails from sleeper back possible?and still useable.
By Krooser - Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:55 PM
You can repair anything if you have enough time and money....

Find a used cut-off and a good hack saw.
By John_Costley - Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:20 PM
74 w 925 (5/25/2011)
would like to keep it as a working hobby if needed.is replacing rails from sleeper back possible?and still useable.


Yup.Once you cut youre frame off you can either just buy a pair of blank rail pieces from someone like PG Adams  http://www.pgadams.com/  and weld them on and redrill for youre current setup (suspension, fifthwheel, ect.) or if you have ever wanted to change suspension and axles then you can look at it as an oppurtunity.Find a good cutoff with the suspension and rears you want and weld it up.A "cutoff" is the compleat frame, fully dressed, cut off behind the cab or sleeper from a wrecked or junked truck.Sometimes the junkyards cut them off ahead of time, but usually you can pick the truck you want cut and tell them where to cut it.

If youre a decent welder, own a heavy drill, and have a good level surface to work on, then you can do it youreself.Its been discussed here quite a few times and there are alot of pics on here too.

Heres something Frank Surber wrote up.If a frame is fixed right it can still work just as hard, or harder, than it did when it was new.John
By fuelem7 - Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:58 AM
thanks.thats the motivation i needed to get started.13 ft of new rail with sleeve from pg adams about 1500.00 delivered + 1/2 day for welder,and alot of sweat.we gotta love these trucks!
By David M. Holt - Thursday, May 26, 2011 4:25 PM
Don't splice the frame if you haul heavy it will always crack 5/16 just to thin for the weld to have any strength.  My buddy did this on his '78 359 Pete he had more problems and labor in repairing it than if he just changed the rails. I bought a complete frame with AG100 under it for $1000. last Saturday. They are out there or Change each rail 1 at a time Kw Is a straight rail if you don't mind drilling but you will be happy you did it when you are done.
By fuelem7 - Friday, May 27, 2011 5:34 PM
is rerailing done with truck assembled?
By John_Costley - Friday, May 27, 2011 11:31 PM
"Don't splice the frame if you haul heavy it will always crack 5/16 just to thin for the weld to have any strength."

David,

All he has to do is watch his heat on his weld and run a bolt in liner behind it if he is going to work the truck.Nobody would ever cut and weld a working frame without putting in a liner, thats just tempting fate.John
By John_Costley - Friday, May 27, 2011 11:34 PM
74 w 925 (5/27/2011)
is rerailing done with truck assembled?


Think about everything connected to the frame.Could it all be jackstanded while you pull and push to get the old rail out and put a new rail in ?.It could, but it would be alot easier to at least partially dissassemble the truck.John
By fuelem7 - Saturday, May 28, 2011 2:32 AM
truck will mainly be a show toy but i would want the option to work it if nessary.max gvw is 80,000 lb,is that considered heavy.is there any value loss for a spliced frame done properly with a sleeve?
By John_Costley - Saturday, May 28, 2011 6:54 AM
74 w 925 (5/28/2011)
truck will mainly be a show toy but i would want the option to work it if nessary.max gvw is 80,000 lb,is that considered heavy.is there any value loss for a spliced frame done properly with a sleeve?


Where I live I consider 80K normal and 100K heavy.As far as value loss, depends on who is looking.Some guys would never even consider a spliced frame, other guys, it doesnt faze them the least.Me, it depends on who did the work.If they did it themselves and I dont know them I wouldnt even consider buying it.Too many potential problems, if you dont have a solid frame you dont have a truck, just a collection of parts.If I know them or their reputation, and youve got paperwork to prove they did it, then I would considerate it, though that sleeve does add weight and most O/O work up my way is weight sensitive.The only way I want to haul extra steel is if I'll be dumping it at the scrapyard with the rest of the load and getting paid by the ton,lol.

For a truck that will be mainly a toy, and probably resold as a toy, it should never be an issue for you, neither value or reliability.John
By Geoff Weeks - Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:12 AM
I hauled 170K on a spliced frame, and routinely hauled 115K with the same. Done well (and I would say mine was done adv., streight cut, not angled or "fingered') it would cause me no worrys.
By wayne graham - Saturday, May 28, 2011 9:23 AM
Don't want to get in your business but you did ask. If you are going to use 13 ft of new rail then you need about 20 ft of liner as the liner needs to stop just behind the motor mounts. The factory does this on new trucks and they call it a 3/4 liner. works very well and you should not have any problems if welded properly. I have built several heavy haul trucks this way and have no problems. The one I use every day is 300 inch with lift axle. I run 72000 on the tractor itself every day without problems. Wayne
By Cam - Friday, June 03, 2011 1:09 PM
Just one word of caution on re-railing your truck:  Before you go through all the time and expense, ask yourself if it would not be better to sell what you have, and get a longer KW with a factory frame to start with.  There's no worse feeling than being way, way into a project, and coming to the realization that "I should have started with something better."  I'm not necessarily saying that is the position you're in, but take a good hard look at the truck and at least ask the question.
By Bruce Ohnstad - Friday, June 03, 2011 4:24 PM
this is a great discussion. 

The only thing I can contribute is my neighbor worked at a big Twin City oil hauler in the 1970s and he said oil haulers were hard on frames.  I asked another guy at South Bend who had a small fleet of oil haulers for a career.  He said they weren't unusually hard on frames.  My neighbor said they would rerail a truck by unbolting everything, prop it up, and slide the old rail out and the new one in.  Apparently straight frames, I believe they were Internationals but I'd have to ask him.  He's not one to make things up.

Bruce
By fuelem7 - Friday, June 03, 2011 4:38 PM
i'm in to deep to turnaround now.i'll probably just do a splice behind the sleeper and sleeve it on the inside.antique = old.chances are any truck i find will not be new old.
By David M. Holt - Saturday, June 04, 2011 1:27 AM
I rerailed a truck before with it assembled you need a lot of blocking or jackstands a engine crane and a forklift with strong fork blades. Its a lot of work specially if the truck is rusty and you need to heat or cut bolts. If you can get a frame drilled the way you need it thats half the battle. You can do it. It'll be worth it in the long run.
By John_Costley - Saturday, June 04, 2011 1:02 PM
Bruce Ohnstad (6/3/2011)
this is a great discussion. 

The only thing I can contribute is my neighbor worked at a big Twin City oil hauler in the 1970s and he said oil haulers were hard on frames.  I asked another guy at South Bend who had a small fleet of oil haulers for a career.  He said they weren't unusually hard on frames.  My neighbor said they would rerail a truck by unbolting everything, prop it up, and slide the old rail out and the new one in.  Apparently straight frames, I believe they were Internationals but I'd have to ask him.  He's not one to make things up.

Bruce


Bruce,

Hauling a tanker is one of the hardest duty cycles for any tractor.Tankers have no torsional give, they are a rigid vessel.Next time youre behind a van or flatbed on a two lane road watch how they twist a little in the middle of the trailer as the drive axles and trailer axles are tracking differently on the edge of the road.Even a relativly flat road has a little variance on grade.With a tanker, theres no twist in the middle of the trailer, all that torsional stress takes its toll by being passed directly into the fifth wheel and frame rails.In our tank fleet we regularly replace fifth wheel mounts and the crossmember between the fifthwheel and the bunk, keep a few in stock all the time.We havent done any frame rails yet, but they dont have much tensile strength left in them.Those tractors squirm around alot more than they did when they were new.John
By dashby - Saturday, June 04, 2011 1:36 PM
John,

Are rocking 5th wheels still used on tankers?

Dean
By fuelem7 - Saturday, June 04, 2011 2:34 PM
iwould not use it to haul fuel.way under spec for todays volume.just want to have the option of useing it as a last resort to haul freight if i had to.
By John_Costley - Saturday, June 04, 2011 3:20 PM
dashby (6/4/2011)
John,

Are rocking 5th wheels still used on tankers?

Dean


Dean,

Some folks still use them, but youre center of gravity cant be more than 44" above the fifth wheel plate, which rules out the big tanks.They dont work well for fleets that switch back and forth from tank to van either.   http://ww1.safholland.us/sites/usa/en-US/products/fifthwheels/FW35Series/Pages/HOLLAND%20FW35.aspx  look on the right under options, its called a Kompensator.John
By tundra - Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:57 PM
the osilatin 5th wheels that we use up north havea ;;lock out ;; bumper stops ta keep the 5th wh from rockin side ta side  while hooked ta any thing outher than a tank trailer ...

....

but they still dont work well  fer both......we used ta have ta run em while haulin cryogenics/fuel/methanal tanks  etc up north

...

.....there too high off the tractor frame.....so we changed em out quite  often dependent on what we was doin at the time...

......back then........sometimes i wished i had ;;velcro;; attachements ta change em out....lol
By Bruce Ohnstad - Sunday, June 05, 2011 6:22 PM
Velcro, that's ;;;;;  funny  ;;;;;   Don't give those show truck builders any ideas!

Bruce
By Tony Bullard - Monday, June 06, 2011 1:54 AM
Here's an oscillating 5ht wheel with tapered lockouts. It does relieve a lot of stress but adds 11" to the frame height.

By deguitars - Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:44 PM
Tony, that's pretty darn cool. But I thought it was a big No No to bolt stuff though the frame flanges?

Cheers,
David
By Tony Bullard - Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:57 AM
I agree with you Dave but the holes were already there from the 5Th wheel I took off. Also it was going to be difficult to fabricate and install an angle iron sub frame for it to wrap around and bolt to the frame web. A lot of spring hanger stuff in the way. That 5Th wheel came off a Mack army truck and was bolted to the flanges. Not good.

Speaking of 5Th wheels I've never seen one like the one that came off the Acar. It was factory mounted on a swivel plate so the whole wheel could rotate 360* and lockable in several positions. What the heck would that have been for?
By dashby - Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:27 AM
Any picts of this 5th wheel?

We had a 5th wheel on the old Acar that tilted side to side and also a little slack shackle for fore and aft.  We loaded it so heavy that it squished down to just a hitch.  The fore and aft was a nightmare--pull hard and start to shift--it would pull you back like the stretch in a long winch line.

Dean
By Tony Bullard - Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:44 AM
Dean, I've been wanting to post pictures of the swivel wheel for quite a while. It's in my bone yard and I'll have to take the truck crane to dig it out. I will get pix soon. It sure is different.

Tony
By Tony Bullard - Friday, June 17, 2011 2:12 AM
Well here’re some pictures of the unusual swivel wheel. The first is the front with the swivel lock engaged. It only locks in one position, straight back but can be set to a float position. Directly below where the king pin would be when engaged in the jaws is a cam with missing linkage that sensed the pins presents. The linkage went to a lock mechanism for the swivel lock. The plate rotated about a bushed heavy center pin with a keeper underneath to hold the plate from lifting.

 

 

The swivel plate is retained by shoes on the top.

 



 

Now here’s another unique thing. It has two spring loaded keys or pawls in the wheel face that would pop up and engage in the glide plate of the attachment (trailer) making the wheel fixed to the glide plate.

 



 

The keys were controlled and locked by a lever on the side of the wheel.

 



 

The assemble was on a truck owned be a rigger and heavy hauler. What could it have been used for?

 

Tony

 
By dashby - Friday, June 17, 2011 9:24 AM
The only application I can think of would be to connect up to a rear steer trailer dolly mechanism.

Dean
By fuelem7 - Friday, June 17, 2011 11:10 AM
is this chassis rot or obsolete 5th wheels as a post
By Eddy Lucast - Friday, June 17, 2011 1:37 PM
looks like both
By dashby - Friday, June 17, 2011 2:17 PM
Well, for the first time, we have strayed off the topic.  Sorry.
By John_Costley - Saturday, June 18, 2011 1:40 AM
74 w 925 (6/17/2011)
is this chassis rot or obsolete 5th wheels as a post


Sorta kinda both,lol.Thats why its good to use the "tag" line when you make a post.The guys talking fifthwheels just type "fifthwheel" on the tag line, the guys talking frames just type "frame" on the tagline, then the whole thread will show up easily on two different searches.John
By Tony Bullard - Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:01 AM
John_Costley (6/18/2011)
74 w 925 (6/17/2011)
is this chassis rot or obsolete 5th wheels as a post


Sorta kinda both,lol.Thats why its good to use the "tag" line when you make a post.The guys talking fifthwheels just type "fifthwheel" on the tag line, the guys talking frames just type "frame" on the tagline, then the whole thread will show up easily on two different searches.John


John, I've never used tags. I'll try to tag this post as fifthwheel and frame.

Tony
By John_Costley - Saturday, June 18, 2011 3:01 AM
Tony,

Its easy.Below the box you type in to post a message is a single space box that says "tags" to the left of it.When youre all done typing youre message in the big box, just type a word or phrase in the tag line, then click "post reply" like you always do.You can also click on "edit" on any of youre old post and go back in and add tags.

When a you type a word or phrase into a search bar and hit go, whether its here, or google,yahoo,ect., the search engine looks all over the site or internet for tags first, then it starts looking thru typed text and picture/video titles.Tags always get priority on searches internet wide.John