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Red Dog III a H67


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By peterj - Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:02 AM
Continuing the saga from Red Dog I, And Red Dog II

The engine has had a little blowby, is getting worse....FAST..

It used to be Ok cold, and moderate when hot. It was not using oil... till sunday. It started to drip oil out of the breather, when hot.....

The breather smells like the stack. I thought the rings might be stuck, or bad. Now I think it is a bad piston!  $$$$$$$

Also the intake sounds like its puffing in and out.

Also its got a miss.. lot'a white smoke when cold. The miss went away when warmed up, but not any more.

I now have a new fall project, may end up doing an inframe, and the heads. $$$$$$

I'll see when I can get it into the shop.

Update when we "pop the top" and look.

Anyone has any other ideas, jump right in here.
By mackb - Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:15 PM
HAVENT BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE PETE..SORRY TO COME BACK AND HEAR ABOUT THE MACK BEING ILL...I KNOW YOU WORKED HARD ON THE H67...MY 58 B MODEL IS READY FOR PAINT..STILL HAS THE WHITE SMOKE WHEN COLD EVEN IN THE SUMMER...MAYBE ITS THE MIX OF KERO AND DIESAL IN HER...AFTER ALL THE TRUCK SAT FOR TWENTY YEARS...BMACK
By peterj - Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:41 PM
I'll update a little here, incase someone did not see my posts in "tech section".

I took the truck down to Cook Bros shop,and pulled the heads and pan. Scored liners and broken rings... Then they pulled the sleeves and it had pinholes in the block, water in dry liners.

Block scrap... found a running take out from a DM mack. Waiting for it to arrive.

Updates later........
By peterj - Thursday, October 28, 2010 3:30 PM
I went down monday to see if the engine had come. NO.Went home and they called ,the engine came in.. they needed a check to send the guy.

Went down tuesday, and looked at the engine.. yup,it's a mack.. 237.. newer then mine..a lot newer. It has the cast intake instead of the stamped steel.Mine was split and would have needed to be changed anyway.

We are going to change a lot of the outside assories. ie; front mount and damper/pully. Exhaust manifold; mine has the turbo mounted closer to the rear . etc, etc...

I'll go fri am and see if they have done anything.. its not like I'm in a hurry.. but south bend is just arround the corner..lol
By peterj - Sunday, October 31, 2010 12:29 PM
Went down to vist the dog friday, no progress.
By peterj - Saturday, November 06, 2010 8:56 AM
A little progress this week. New (used replacement) engine was put up in the engine stand,bottom opened up, and inspected. They installed new berrings, and oil pump. Crank was perfect, no scraches, berrings weren't bad,but never going to be a better time.Oil pump bushing was loose, so they changed that.Its going to get new front and rear seals, too.

Sleaves and pistons looked good, what you could see from the bottom. Its getting a new clutch, and flywheel turned, while its apart.. They are doing it right. It's easyer  to do these things now, when things are apart, then to have take it apart again later... what the heck, its only money$$$$  lol.

The truck has been at the shop so long,they gave it its own mail box, set one on the front fender. So far its only recieved 1 ad, and someone made a paper piston and rod..labeled it volvo... lol.
By Bill White - Saturday, November 06, 2010 2:08 PM
Boy Peterj, someone has bad thoughts calling a real Mack a dirty word (Volvo) yuck.

Good Luck with the new momo.........................Bill
By peterj - Tuesday, November 16, 2010 7:47 AM
Pictures from when they did the bottom..http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/55c2e85e-c96c-46a9-80e6-6a3f.JPG
The engine  is upside down not the pictures

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/21d5b20e-11de-44a3-97c8-6ec6.JPG

Two guys stripping                             the old engine

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/6ba5d244-08fe-41b6-bb6d-dfc4.JPG

I hope someone knows how to put it back !!!!! lol
Where does that go?
http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/b8bff81f-d525-4e97-ae13-aa07.JPG

Up dates later................
By peterj - Friday, November 19, 2010 7:52 AM
Old engine out...

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/4df91c7a-24c9-43c3-9d16-bcdf.JPG

Old block almost stripped
http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/cd71b3d6-955e-4799-8d1c-8f05.JPG

New engine... getting dressed;

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/17588f6a-f801-4dfd-9617-8716.JPG

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/4312a796-fe88-46d8-8a39-4673.JPG

Hold up on exhaust manifold.. The one on the old engine was rear mount turbo.. mounted in front of 456 cylinders.. the one on the replacement engine is center mount and sticks out from the block farther so the injection lines go behind the manifold. On the old engine, they had just cobbled the lines, mashed them in. Email pics sent out and we have a "maybe", waiting for an answer...
Clutch fell  apart on removal.. one disc had the center out.. Pressure plate in pieces
http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/fcc46410-c490-4ab4-989b-4b9e.JPG

Fran doesn't work Friday, and sometimes mon, but he can finish getting the engine ready, and put it in. Manifold can go on later...
BTW this engine is a 1984.. old was early 70's

Thats all for now...........................
By Bill White - Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:13 AM
Nice and clean and painted up always looks good.

When this is done you can go anywhere then Pete.

Bill
By peterj - Wednesday, December 01, 2010 9:45 AM
Update; Not much was done B4 thanksgiving. 
The engine and trans are now back in the frame! http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/99cf7585-cd24-4c0d-b15c-f80a.gif
They tried the new motor mount (front) and it was too high. They used the old motor mount and spaced it back 1 1/2 in.. worked great.. rear was lined up perfect.
They installed a new clutch, with spring centers, not solid. Had to put a new input shaft in. Broken clutch and bad pilot berring had messed it up.. bad. 

disreguard picture of ED, he just giving Fran a hard time. Fran is doing most of the work...

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/59eb966c-4aa0-44ec-aa97-5162.JPG

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/1574eac2-467b-4e73-8cfc-8ebb.JPG

The exhaust manifold never came. The man we were getting from, took it off and had it in his office, then couldn't remember where to send it. CRS?  lol it may be contagious....
Other little things are being done... moving along now.


By Bill White - Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:26 PM
Peter, You will be listening to the dog bark before long,

Bill

By peterj - Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:35 PM
I hope they will have it done before Christmas...... or south bend, lol.
They are doing a good job. I don't visit too often,it slows them up, i think.
It's going to scare me when I see the bill. Iv'e been keeping track, in my head,of all the small parts,  ca$ching ca$ching...
By kblackav8or - Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:15 PM
Looks good.  Glad to see someone else besides me using the Blog for an ongoing build.
By peterj - Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:35 PM
Don't get many coments , but someone must be looking. The number of views keeps going up.. lol

You look at mine, i'll look at yours....

Have a safe trip... GOD SPEED
By Terry Tombaugh - Sunday, December 12, 2010 4:37 AM
I'm a lookin'!!!!!
By peterj - Monday, December 13, 2010 1:40 PM
After waiting for the manifold to come, fran went on with a few other things.

After the manifold came , it wouldn't  work, to high and to far foward. He put the manifold that came with the 84 engine and modified the crossover pipes. Cut and rewelded.

Here is a pic of FRAN, he's doing this job. Old enough know these...
http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/9bd6223f-c6f9-4ce4-b276-fe5f.JPG

The alternator and AC compressor work good. When they went to put the water hose, and thermostat housing on,the cab hit when lowered. They are working on a mod.. water filter had to go, they are making a steel elbow (an S) with rubber cuplings.

Other things are coming along , slowly.

http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/99827eb0-7ee7-44a5-8963-8e49.JPG

The old junk
http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/97bfa8fe-1f31-41da-8b76-8fe9.JPG

It will get done, sooner or later or later or later....................
By Bill White - Monday, December 13, 2010 6:31 PM
It is looking better all the time, Peterj

Bill
By Eddy Lucast - Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:49 AM
Trust me Peter we're watching!
By wayne graham - Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:10 AM
Peter, Yes we are watching. A freind of mine has several B-model tow trucks with 237-s in them. I did not realize the problems you are experiencing as they go in B-model fairly easy. Guess I never saw your job being done before. We dont have any H-models left around here and never did have many so I am not familiar with them. Wayne
By peterj - Saturday, December 18, 2010 1:11 AM
Wayne, most guys that switch the engines just take all the assories and mounts off the old engine and put them on the new.  The engine that was in RED DOG , was a 72 or so, the replacement we are putting in is an 84 from a DM, and things changed in 12 years.  lol

The original engine was a 673. Who ever put the 72 engine in took a lot of short cuts (Mickey mouse) and we wanted to fix the things.  
Some of the things that were different; damper and pulleys,water pump,water manifold and thermostat housing, Intake maifold, exhaust manifold, turbo and mount. More but I can't remember now.

We needed to change the air intake because the old one (stamped steel) was split. The replacement was cast, much stronger. I thought it was better to up grade the water manifold and pump, etc. 
All this , cascades, if you change this , you needed to change that, etc....

Part of the problem was, that the dog house sloops down in the front. doing this on a  B model , you dont have that. B's have more room on top , but less on the side. If i'm not clear, ask more questions..

This weeks up date;  it's almost in. I think they might make it by Christmas..
Left to do; one water hose on top, air intake pipe  from turbo to air cleaner, Rear trans mount, drive shaft, air tanks, and a few little things. 

When done, it will have been updated to newer specs. Easyer to get parts for a 25 yr old truck than a 50 yr old... lol

More later.........................................

By peterj - Saturday, December 25, 2010 5:20 AM
Not much progress this week. They put Fran on a snow plow , one of them little  jobs , that took a week after they got in to it. 

They did get the air cleaner on and fabed up new pipes. 

Maybe they will make New Years........  This New years , I hope. 
By wayne graham - Saturday, December 25, 2010 2:40 PM
Peter, thanks for the explanation. I am with you if it is going to be done lets do it right. Sorry you have to go to so much extra time and money but you will have something to show for it in the end.Wayne
By Bill White - Monday, December 27, 2010 3:01 AM
Here you are peterj. lets hope yours is not lost in space. It will be good when you get it back home.........Bill

By peterj - Monday, December 27, 2010 3:55 AM
Here in the east, they did need to do the snow plow first... I guess...lol
By peterj - Monday, January 10, 2011 4:27 AM
Not much of an update. The little things are taking forever!!

Some time , with the cab up and down testing for fit, the clutch mount pivot in the front got bent and cracked. Aluminum. They took it off, pressed it straight,then groved the crack and tig welded it. 

While it was off, they found most of the pivots were wollerd out (tech term). They are boring them out and putting bronze bushing in. 

They found the same thing on the throttle links. He couldn't get the last 1/8 in of throttle, due to slop in the linkage--- going to fix that too....

They couldn't find a rubber flex hose that would work at the top, so they had a muffler shop bend some steel tube to fit , with short straight rubbers at both ends.

I hope they will have it done the end of this week or next... but you've heard that B4.............

Later...

By junkmandan - Monday, January 10, 2011 4:58 AM
Peter------Some of the PIA things about cab overs ! Jack cab up to fix something,let it down and you bent the shift lever because it didn't go up through the shifter hole ! [famous on binders]  Or on cracker boxes with Orchlen lever parking brake handle [before spring brakes] ,let the cab down on the lever and bend the floor opening so it would never seal right . Up,Down,Up,Down ,Up,Down forever !
By peterj - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:00 PM
Update; ITS ALIVE, I got a phone call saying its ready!

I'll go down thurs pm or fri am...  I didn't think it would be good to get it in the snow, not bobtail weather.

All I need is a hand full of money,, a BIG hand full!
By Eddy Lucast - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 2:37 PM
Peter,

Congratulations. We're looking forward to your report on the new engine.
By wayne graham - Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:25 PM
Peter, congratulations you will have something to be proud of. Wayne Graham
By Bill White - Thursday, January 13, 2011 1:08 AM
Great Peter,

That will be good to get it home I would like to hear it run

Bill
By peterj - Friday, January 14, 2011 6:05 AM
Red Dog is home!!!!!  http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/9ff3291b-3346-4dc4-9cac-30ef.gif

They had it running when I got there. Tony (service mgr) had taken it for short test today. New clutch and linkage is great. Fixing the linkage and new bushings helped a lot. Grease in the right places helped too!. 

The engine is strong,no comparing with the old. Oil pressure high, as it should with new bearings and pump. Water temp steady at 170-175.Before only ran 150 , then up and down.

Manifold pressure, way more. Before it would only make 15 psi on a pull, Now it runs right up to 20, and over 25 on a little pull.

Top speed up,now tops out at 73/74 level. Pulled belden hill at 71/72. http://forums.aths.org/InstantForum2010/Uploads/Images/d3a9644a-422d-4382-bf95-9b0a.gif
Fixing the throttle linkage was most of that. Couldn't get the throttle all the way because of the slop....

Bad news,I had trouble getting in the drive due to ice. I had to cut some branches off my neighbors tree/bush. They got tangled in the mirror! Before the thaw, i'll move it over a little. It can sit where it is till it starts to thaw, (about 2 1/2 mo here).

Good news is that they cut a lot of hours off my bill, and only charged $50/hr. 
Bad news, i still had to fill my pantie hose with money for them.
Cost about 12500 plus tax, (1000). 
They did fix 50 yrs of micky mouse, and cobbling. Like a new truck now.

I'm tickeled pink, but can't play with my toy till the weather gets better.

By chocko - Friday, January 14, 2011 6:16 AM
Peter You are now ready for South Bend,Macungie Honesdale,Harford,Gerharts and others in between. Good Luck. Joe D.
By junkmandan - Friday, January 14, 2011 7:58 AM
Peter--------Good to hear you got it home ,and in one piece .Sounds fair that they cut labor charge as I bet they enjoyed the winter job also . Hope you didn't have to mortgage your house !   
By Dennis Wells AKA Smiley - Friday, January 14, 2011 9:20 AM
Congratulations
By Lmackattack - Friday, January 14, 2011 5:55 PM
good to hear peter. if your getting 25psi out of that 237 I would find a EGT gauge to see what temps its reaching. My 285 is charge cooled(tip turbine) and it pushes the 1100* mark on good pulls. I push it to 27psi but it will touch 30 psi in the cold.  regardless would hate to see a melted piston after all this work.
By Terry Tombaugh - Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:48 AM
Glad to hear she is home Peter!

T.
By peterj - Monday, January 17, 2011 4:13 AM
I'll try to list/recap all  that was done in this engine change.

This engine is a 84  E6 - 237. The engine that was removed was a early 70's ENDT 675, 237. The original engine was a ENDT 673, rating unknown.

On the new engine , before putting it in;
New rod and main bearings,
Block stiffener kit installed in lower end,
New injectors,
Adjust valves,
New oil pump,
Resealed air compresser,
Front and rear seals,

When putting the engine in the frame, They had to do it several times to get a motor mount, pulley, damper combo that would work right. They ended up using the 84 front mount and fabed a spacer (1 1/2") so the rear mount lined up.

Installed new rubber mounts , front and rear.
New damper
 
On to the clutch and trans,
Flywheel turned
New EZ pedal clutch with dampened center discs.
Clutch brake
New head shaft kit, as the bad clutch had messed up the old shaft.
Pilot bearing
Throw out bearing.

When the engine and trans were instaled in the 70s, the linkage was cobbed togather. While putting the engine in and out this time the aliminum pivot bracket was  bent , and had a crack.
When they took the bracket off to fix it , they found the pivots, pins, clevices, all were shot. They straightened the bracket, and grooved it and tig welded it.
They rebushed they pivot,and replaced the pins. Also fixed the rest of the linkage and return springs so they worked correctly. Then they had to adjust everything so the clutch brake and the free play were correct at the same time.

They had to do the linkage on the throttle too. This had a spring pulling open to take the slack out of all the bad connections and pivots. They fixed all this correctly..

On to the exhaust manifold. We tried to find a manifold that would mount the turbo in the correct place, rear right side. No luck, ended up with the top mount. This required fabbing new crossover pipe, new intake pipe, and redoing the exhaust brake, and pipes. 

They replaced all the oil lines, including the guage line.

When mounting the ac compressor, they had to make one of the lines 3" longer. This engine had the pulleys mounted behind the balancer, the old had the pulleys in front.

Air lines-  they put a new air govener on and a new out put line all the way to the wet tank. A new gov control line too.  Redoing the air intake, required welding a new bung on the air intake and a new line for the compressor in take.

On to the water. The old thermostat outlet pointed to the right. The new straight up. There was not enough space to run the hose pointing up. With the cab down there was very little space as the dog house tapers down in the front.

After looking at several options, it was decided they had to put a tight 90 on top of the housing. There was not enough metal to tap the housing or even insert the tip into the housing. The only option was to but weld it. But; the thermostat housing was cast iron,not steel. Tony sent it out to be welded,to a buddy who had an oven, and could properly weld it. He welded it with NI rod, and then silver soldered it to be sure of no water leaks and for extra strenth. 

Then they couldn't find a flex hose to fit. A the good ones , with the wire inside, were to long. Tony had another buddy, bend a steel tube to fit and used 2 short straight rubber pieces. All the other hoses were replaced too.

Then they went to start it and it wouldn't.Fran found a rusted, broken?, spring in the pump. Check valve? They told me , but I forgot.  CRS
It started, ran , then stopped. No vents on the tanks.It only had a vented cap on the left side, and draws off the right. IE; cross over closed , no way to draw air into the tank. The put 2 new vents on the tanks and a new cross over line.

The gear shift had always been close to the seat, and you had to put it in 1st to get reverse. A lot of play in the whole thing. Tony told Fran to bend it or what ever... I don't know what he did but its fixed. He took most
 of the play out of it..   GREAT. I'll ask him next time I see him, what he did.. 

A project like this could not have been done with out help and people who take an interest in it. I'll try to thank and give a list of the players.

Tony, shop mgr, and head engineer on this ...
Marc, shop mgr, and machinest.. (Inlove with his Bridgeport mill) lol
Fran,head wrench, only one to have worked on these when they were in use
Ed, wrench, and A1 welder
Chris, parts mgr for shop, gone crazy trying to find stuff for 30,40 50 yr old stuff
          that has all been modifyed
All  the people of this board who helped on and off line....
And Cook Bros, Binghamton, who allowed this to take place in their shop.

This project could not have been done without people donateing time , and knowledge..... Thanks everyone!!!

I know I forgot some things... If I remember I'l add then.  I'm claiming CRS lol





So much for RED DOG III , I'll start RED DOG IIII when I continue...



By Eddy Lucast - Monday, January 17, 2011 6:24 AM
Peter ,

Now you need sign board to put out at truck shows so we know whats been done to it and to thank those involved, maybe even get them to autograph your sign!
By peterj - Monday, January 17, 2011 11:02 AM
Eddy , this is the online division. You guys brought me, kicking and screaming ,in to the 21 century. A story board will never do... how about a Jumbotron...

well , maybe a 39.95 dvd player from wally world...     lol
By Eddy Lucast - Monday, January 17, 2011 11:37 AM
Well,

Since you suggested it, LOL We can make a full video presentation with sound and project it on the side of a 13'6" trailer, maybe not as big as a Jumbotron but much more truckly!!
By Lmackattack - Tuesday, January 18, 2011 5:59 PM
for the slop in the mainstick you have to go into the top cover and see what the rails,forks, springs etc... look like. I know on the 6 speeds the aux stick had a bushing you could replace. bending the stick diffrent ways reduces the throw and cleans it up. Sounds like alot of work to get her right. I can only imagine what had to be fabed up to get it all to work.